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You are once again comparing to Median, and you say skills are pretty dangerous there, but Blizzard wants this game not to have so many Uber skills, so to speak. And it seems this is what you are only looking for IMO which is quite sad. I enjoy a good challenge, not mowing down hordes while chewing bubble gum and hardly breaking a sweat.
He's saying that the monsters in Median are so threatening and dangerous that you need 100% Retaliation to survive. D3 will have them weaker, so that 10% Retaliate will be enough.
Actually I disagree with BrotherLaz on this point. Retaliate in MXL is generally regarded as the strongest melee attack in the game. Assured AoE KB is very strong.
And we know nothing of the hit mechanics in Diablo 3. It's possible the characters will be hit 5x as much as in D2, with each hit doing comparatively less damage. In that case a 10%-35% chance to Retaliate would be enough.|||Quote:
Berserk:
* Wrath of the Berserker
o Active skill that increases numerous Barbarian combat stats.
* Onslaught (requires Berserker State)
o Active skill that increases crit and dodge chance.
Same thing.
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Battlemaster:
* Cripple
o Passive skill that slows enemy movement and attack rate.
Ok, this one is unique.
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Juggernaut:
* Earthquake
o Active skill that creates a huge wave of damage.
At best this is a melee version of SSlam or Ground Stomp. At worst it is a carbon copy with different graphics.
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Wrath of Berserker is a real fury dispenser. If this one is taken by a player he will most likely want to focus on passives or anything that doesen't take fury to be used. Wrath doesen't necessarely work better with 1 or 2 weapons but it's really fury consuming so the build needs to take that in to account. Last one is Onslaught. Can't really say who it fits the best but it's offensive and defensive at the same time. If there aren't any x times per minute counters then this one will be better for dualweilders as berserker state requires alot of hits to be on alot.
Melee builds with different passive skills aren't different builds, it's the same build that does the same thing but has different stats.
Dual wield and 2h users are the same, they just use different items and maybe one swings faster and the other does more damage...
......
Lol @ picking obviously old and outdated videos.
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What the heck is that? Those arent even Barbarian melee skills to me.
Heh, this explains very much your problem with my issue. This is a throwing axe trap. How do you catch a bear? You make a trap with a bent branch with something sharp on it so the bear gets impaled when he trips it. I'd guess that is how barbarians hunt, too.
But hell, it says 'barbarian' so it must be 50000 variations of melee. You (and a lot of other people here) are convinced that barbs are only melee characters and that there is enough variety to be found in melee attacking 'with the focus on defense' and melee attacking 'with the focus on offense' and that those two builds are really very different, honestly!
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(1) A summoner barb seems way too much 'out of the box', and doesnt fit the Barb's design philosophy well. He doesnt need a helping hand, he has 2 pairs of 80 inch biceps hands to dish out the pain himself!!!
Yeah, well, Median has ancient spirit summons. That fits, right? And if you stand near them (ie. fight at their side), you get damage and defense bonuses, while you share your own power with them. Of course I'm not saying he should summon zombies.
But hey, it's out of the box so it sucks! Barbarians are really supposed to be ten million variations of melee, melee some more, melee with splash, melee with knockback and thankfully the occasional whirlwind (and a carbon copy with faster speed and less AoE: Furious Charge), AoE shockwave (of which we get two, one with a leap attached and one without) and ranged slam attack (of which we also get two, by the way: SSlam and Earthquake).
It's all the same thing, of course. You run up to an enemy and click on it, and it takes damage, and maybe your stats go up and other enemies take damage too. Thankfully you get three attacks that do something different - actually six, but they come in pairs.
If that's variety, then firebolt and icebolt are different, too.
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(3) I would leave that to weapon enhancements or maybe it will be present in the skill runes, who knows!
Skill runes aren't the miracle fix for everything. That's like all the people saying you shouldn't worry about macro being removed in Starcraft 2 because 'they'll find something'. They haven't found anything yet and beta's gonna start in a few months.
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If anything, you would have to include a mastery dealing ALL kinds of damage to the main attack so as not to upset any fans (why only poison?)
What kind of reasoning is that? Then D2 sorcs should be upsetting fans left and right because they can't do poison or magic damage.
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but then again he would be too OP like that!
Stupid reasoning; numbers can always be adjusted. Also, why would it be overpowered to not be completely stuck at immunes anyway?
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Yes we know immunes are going to be back as stated in a certain skill, but they will have good ways of going around them. At least I hope so, they should have learned the lesson!
Yes: so far one skill, making this skill of course mandatory. (Remember Berserk)
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Blizzard doesnt have to worry about that, they can make as many bold changes to the core gameplay (and they already did), things that were never once needed in Diablo or ARPGs in general (potion-spamming has always been a staple for example).
They can't even change the colours for chrissakes without mass crying.
Orbs are a very minor change (admittedly a change that will have some impact on gameplay). The only reason why potion spam is standard in every ARPG is because they're all soulless copies of D2 including its flaws, much like every FPS is a copy of each other including flaws like save spamming (or the alternative: autosaves that trigger when you're at 18% life with 2 bullets left).|||Quote:
But hell, it says 'barbarian' so it must be 50000 variations of melee. You (and a lot of other people here) are convinced that barbs are only melee characters and that there is enough variety to be found in melee attacking 'with the focus on defense' and melee attacking 'with the focus on offense' and that those two builds are really very different, honestly!).
Yes, barbarian is all about pure BRUTAL RAW PHYSICAL MELEE. He's called Barbarian for Christs sake. There is enough variety indeed ... Plus you havent seen anything the runes or other game systems to be put in place can do, like I already said. You are already dispelling the Barb like crazy, we are still around 2 years away from game release.
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Yeah, well, Median has ancient spirit summons. That fits, right? And if you stand near them (ie. fight at their side), you get damage and defense bonuses, while you share your own power with them. Of course I'm not saying he should summon zombies.
Barbarian with ancient spirit summons ... Nah.
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But hey, it's out of the box so it sucks! Barbarians are really supposed to be ten million variations of melee, melee some more, melee with splash, melee with knockback and thankfully the occasional whirlwind (and a carbon copy with faster speed and less AoE: Furious Charge), AoE shockwave (of which we get two, one with a leap attached and one without) and ranged slam attack (of which we also get two, by the way: SSlam and Earthquake).
It doesnt suck cuz its out of the box, but it sucks cuz it doesnt fit in with the Barbarian, at all.
Lol @ comparing WW and Furious Charge.
SSlam and Earthqauke might be very different ... we havent seen Earthquake and cant assume anything from its very vague description, yes huge wave of damage .... dealt how?
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Skill runes aren't the miracle fix for everything. That's like all the people saying you shouldn't worry about macro being removed in Starcraft 2 because 'they'll find something'. They haven't found anything yet and beta's gonna start in a few months.
We are not in need of any miracle fix, to be honest. There is nothing to fix IMO, I'm just saying your idea of a passive poison damage skill is weak and if you want variety / originality / whatever, come up with something better.
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What kind of reasoning is that? Then D2 sorcs should be upsetting fans left and right because they can't do poison or magic damage..
Sorcs are the least of fan worries lol. They have hydras, blizzards, electrocute, arcane damage, spectral blade, and tornadoes. 6 elements. But you are right, what I really meant to say is why poison only?
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Stupid reasoning; numbers can always be adjusted. Also, why would it be overpowered to not be completely stuck at immunes anyway?.
Being stuck and challenged by immunes is one thing, not being fazed by them at all is another. Stupid reasoning ... no its not. In your case numbers would have to be adjusted for the Barb, specifically for one class.
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Yes: so far one skill, making this skill of course mandatory. (Remember Berserk).
They stated they want players to be able to handle immunities through other ways besides just the skills given to them .... they stated multiple times, both Bash and Wilson. Have some faith dude. May I repeat the game is still 2 years off.
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They can't even change the colours for chrissakes without mass crying.
Not me :P :P
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Orbs are a very minor change (admittedly a change that will have some impact on gameplay). The only reason why potion spam is standard in every ARPG is because they're all soulless copies of D2 including its flaws, much like every FPS is a copy of each other including flaws like save spamming (or the alternative: autosaves that trigger when you're at 18% life with 2 bullets left).
I love the shift to Orbs personally.
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Dual wield and 2h users are the same, they just use different items and maybe one swings faster and the other does more damage....
Not the same at all, there are different builds in their to be found. Dual wielders and 2 handers are in essentiality a different build from the start. Your idea of a different build is moving away from the melee aspect of a Barbarian, which is crazy IMO. Paladins in D2 maybe, they had auras and FoH and Hammers .... but they were not Barbarians. Barbarians have no ties to magic or anything besides melee, as their lore clearly states. Maybe the enchanted Hammer of the Ancients at best, still a melee attack. But nothing like the stuff I see in Median videos. A Barbarian running away from cows while all kinds of crazy novas get triggered or retriggered over time, and he is essentially killing them by doing nothing actively. That is NOT a barbarian. He hits them 5 times at max throughout the whole video, just to stun them with an AOE attack (which we have in D3 anyway) which retriggers all kind of crazy novas and elemental effects for the next minute or so. In the meantime he is just running, running, running. Seriously, if that is what you are after, stick to Median please, no offense. D3 is not a fan mod anyway, they cannot just do what they like with it just cuz they think its cool, because they have a gigantic fan base to appeal to.
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Lol @ picking obviously old and outdated videos.
Whats your point? Still demonstrates what Median is all about. Come up with a reasonable argument instead perhaps?|||Quote:
Melee builds with different passive skills aren't different builds, it's the same build that does the same thing but has different stats.
No they aren't the same thing at all, having different stats changes the way you play and also the items you benefit from most, in short they are differernt builds even if they use the same active skills because the differernt stats and items will make them use those same skills differently (and add differernt skill runes to them).
The way builds are defined in D3 is very different from how it was in D2 .... defining a build in D3 by a single skill is a big joke really.
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Dual wield and 2h users are the same, they just use different items and maybe one swings faster and the other does more damage
There are many more differences between 2 Handers and Dual wielders, enough that Dual wielders get access to way more weapon affixes and combinations of modifiers that users of 2 handed weapons can't get on a single weapon, also is room to make them even more different by making passive and active skills that modify how each style works (i.e Passives giving higher critical chance for 2h users, others giving speed boost to Dual wielders)
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Skill runes aren't the miracle fix for everything. That's like all the people saying you shouldn't worry about macro being removed in Starcraft 2 because 'they'll find something'. They haven't found anything yet and beta's gonna start in a few months.
As for skill runes, they change how the skill works to a great degree, add to that all the possible combinations of skills with skill runes and you get tons of possible combinations that could fit with many builds and playstyles .. not to mention the system is now being revamped and updated to make it even better.
As for SC2 ... they did what they promised ... i don't know what cave you have been in but the Macro thing has been done a long time ago, maybe you were too focused on D3 that you missed the fact they already added many new Macro options to all three races (Terran choice between Mules/Scanning/Supply Depot Capacity increase - Zerg Queen laying extra Larva/Eggs for quick deployment / Protoss using Obelisk for recharging shields or speed buffing Probes) and all the fans found them satisfactory.
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But hell, it says 'barbarian' so it must be 50000 variations of melee. You (and a lot of other people here) are convinced that barbs are only melee characters and that there is enough variety to be found in melee attacking 'with the focus on defense' and melee attacking 'with the focus on offense' and that those two builds are really very different, honestly!).
Yes Barb are Melee and 75% of their builds will be melee focused .. that's a given because that's how the class was meant to be ... a melee juggernaut, and the builds in D3 like i said focus on themes rather than a single skill like WW, so we can have:-
-TankBarb (uses skills that lower enemy damage, taunt them and use passives that increase healing and defense and uses HP increasing Gear)
-CritBarb (more focus on achieving critical hits through passives and item modifiers, works great with enchanted weapons)
-SpeedBarb (More mobility focused skills like Sprint, F.Charge and Leap and works better with D.wielding)
-Offensive Barb (focuses on dealing biggest damage on many enemies, uses skills like Cleave, and passives like Double strike and slashing strike, along with STR increasing gear and passives)
-SingerBarb (focuses on active buffing and debuffing warcries, Battle Cry, Enrage, Battle Rage and Threatening Shout), ... etc etc .. and each and every one of them can have a couple of variations as well (different skill combinations and differernt gear) ... but making a build in D3 and calling it WWBarb doesn't make much sense anymore.
Not to mention Blizz can add some skills to make Shield wielding barbs and ranged barbs viable options .. this will open up even more variety.
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They stated they want players to be able to handle immunities through other ways besides just the skills given to them .... they stated multiple times, both Bash and Wilson. Have some faith dude. May I repeat the game is still 2 years off.
But what i know there will be no 100% immunities at all, high resistance maybe .. but full immunities are a big No No in D3.|||I haven't read everything in this thread, but I'll state what I think:
First of all, the game is FAR from completion. If Blizzard doesn't like the way something is looking, they'll fix it, or even start over.
About the one-trick ponies: I think different attacks will have pro's and cons in different situations. For example, if you're up against skeletons that put up their shields (I know those quake-type attacks already solve this, but it's just an example), quick but light attacks like Whirlwind would do next to nothing. However, heavy attacks will do significant damage.
Slower attacks like Bash could be evaded (altogether, not due to defense) by quick monsters, but quicker attacks like Slash (just to name anything) don't have this problem. The knockback on Bash could help evade attacks that trigger on death (like from D2's Stygian Dolls).
See? I'm just making this up on the spot, but I think this shows that there can be done a lot to prevent one-trick ponies in D3. We've already seen that the Monk will have combo's, so I don't see why things like this wouldn't work. Diablo is a hack 'n slash RPG after all.
This all, of course, DOES require that the monsters actually get some skills like this. Things like skeletons putting up their shields is a simple but very good example of good monster skills.
About the immunity problems: there will be lots of damage types in D3, so I was thinking physical damage could be divided in cutting, piercing and bashing. Of course, this would impose the problem of having to switch your weapons, but, again, it's just something I thought of on the spot.
This is not D2, people. I'm not saying this to look like a smart***, but to hopefully convince you to think outside the box named D2.|||Seems to me some people are kind of missing the point of getting access to active abilities throughout the 3 trees. As far as I can tell, there is no active ability that will be the game wining ability that everyone just spams. Each ability has a specific purpose in mind to be used in a given situation the help you survive.
Now you may say, 'whats the point of different specs if everyone can pick up all the skills?' Well, for these skills to deal effective damage one must invest heavily in the various passives that synergies with that skill (looks like d2's 1.10 synergies were an early practice run). So while everyone may be able to grab a lot of the various skills throughout all the trees they will still be limited in effectiveness by the passives that they pick and choose.
'Why get access to all those skills if they are just going to suck?' you may ask. Well, as it has been stated before, a lot of these active abilities have utility purposes, making them extremely useful or almost necessary to make it through the game. This allows for a variety of builds to grab all the necessary goodies without being forced into spending heavily into a particular tree.
'Why do the shouts have such a short duration?' Blizzard has clearly made an effort to insure these abilities are true active skills, not passives that you have to refresh every 7 minutes. They have created a clear separation between passive skills and active skills. Why? Active skills are fun and engaging, forcing the gamer to make real time decisions; passives that need to be refreshed (like BO, shout, holy shield, etc) are boring, require no decision making, and more importantly are a chore.|||Quote:
Seems to me some people are kind of missing the point of getting access to active abilities throughout the 3 trees. As far as I can tell, there is no active ability that will be the game wining ability that everyone just spams. Each ability has a specific purpose in mind to be used in a given situation the help you survive.
Now you may say, 'whats the point of different specs if everyone can pick up all the skills?' Well, for these skills to deal effective damage one must invest heavily in the various passives that synergies with that skill (looks like d2's 1.10 synergies were an early practice run). So while everyone may be able to grab a lot of the various skills throughout all the trees they will still be limited in effectiveness by the passives that they pick and choose.
'Why get access to all those skills if they are just going to suck?' you may ask. Well, as it has been stated before, a lot of these active abilities have utility purposes, making them extremely useful or almost necessary to make it through the game. This allows for a variety of builds to grab all the necessary goodies without being forced into spending heavily into a particular tree.
'Why do the shouts have such a short duration?' Blizzard has clearly made an effort to insure these abilities are true active skills, not passives that you have to refresh every 7 minutes. They have created a clear separation between passive skills and active skills. Why? Active skills are fun and engaging, forcing the gamer to make real time decisions; passives that need to be refreshed (like BO, shout, holy shield, etc) are boring, require no decision making, and more importantly are a chore.
Pretty much sums up everything.|||Quote:
Maybe im just being picky, but it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see why a full juggernaut barb should be able to use a move called "wrath of the berserker" unless he has enough points invested in the berserker tree.
I agree. I'm also concerned with skill caps and how we will be allowed to increase them. Worse than what you just pointed out would be being able to increase "wrath of the berserker"'s skill cap from 5 to 10, or even higher when you have focused most (near all) of your skill points into juggernaut skills, completely ignoring most berserker skills.
Why should we be allowed to ignore an entire tree's lower tier skills and then choose and use the tree's iconic top tier abilities... and place points into them beyond the initial skill cap.
To me, if X points into lower tier skills from any tree unlocks the next tier of skills from all of the trees, at the very least, you should only be able to boost skills caps on skills in the trees in which you have focused your skill points.
In other words, I believe only someone focused on Berserker skills should be able to increase skill caps on Berserker skills to their highest levels. I do not want to see people focused on Juggernaut skills, ignoring all lower tier Berserker skills, running around using an iconic, top tier berserker skill at skill level 15 or 20, the same as someone who focused on Berserker skills.|||Quote:
I agree. I'm also concerned with skill caps and how we will be allowed to increase them. Worse than what you just pointed out would be being able to increase "wrath of the berserker"'s skill cap from 5 to 10, or even higher when you have focused most (near all) of your skill points into juggernaut skills, completely ignoring most berserker skills.
Why should we be allowed to ignore an entire tree's lower tier skills and then choose and use the tree's iconic top tier abilities... and place points into them beyond the initial skill cap.
Why not, you haven't provided any realistic reason as to why it is bad .. like i said before this approach is very limiting and forces players to put points in skills they don't plan to use or doesn't have any significant benefit for their build.
i tired to make few theoretical builds and in almost 50% of them i found myself picking skills from mid or high tier of other trees because they fit with my build approach ... i'm glad they removed such limitations otherwise if i tried to make those builds i would have to waste points on skills don't need which is by default bad and limiting design.
Want an example .. here is goes.
1-Summoner Witch Doctor
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1-Summon Zombie Dog - Summon a pet Zombie Dog (formerly known as Mongrel).
2-Sacrifice - Detonate a nearby Zombie Dog in an explosion, dealing damage X% of the Zombie Dog's health to monsters nearby.
3-Zombie Charger - Summon a reckless, enraged zombie from the ground to assault your enemies.
4-Gargantuan - Summons a large zombie follower to fight for you.
5-Parasite - Launch a parasite at an enemy dealing 3 damage per second. If the target dies while under the effects of the Parasite a Zombie Dog emerges from the slain body.
6-Horrify - Don a spectral mask that horrifies enemies, causing them to run away from you.
7-Fetish Army - Summon an army of Fetishes to fight by your side.
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-Mind and Body - A passive skill; regenerates mana and health.
-Unrelenting Assault - Enables one of your Zombie Dogs to instantaneously resurrect itself upon its death.
-Ferocity - Increases the health and damage of your Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan by 8%.
-Spirit Sense - Increase damage against targets with low health by X% percentage.
Note that this build is quite crude and of course far from perfect, but the most clear problem i faces is that Fetish Army (which is a summon skill at Voodoo tree) was at the highest tier in its tree, why the heck am i supposed to invest in like 6-8 Fire, Poison skills in order to be able to use Fetish Army when i'm making a Summoner WD .. makes no sense to me.
What you are simply promoting is limiting builds by trees and encouraging players to just dump points in one or at max 2 trees which is IMO a very bad approach .. Blizz themselves had tons of skills that promoted that approach in their previous build (passives that enhanced certain skill or a whole tree) but they realized it is very limiting and removed them all (also because of skill runes covering the role of skill enhancing passives)|||I'm with galv on this one. I really like the idea of only being able to raise skill caps to a certain point if you haven't invested enough in a specific tree. It sounds limiting but it could bring up many more builds. Maybe some decide to go full jugg with max skill capped jugg skills and lower berserker skills. Maybe some go half and half with all skill caps half way maxed.
Idk, but i really don't like the idea of being able to jump around skill trees like that. It would be like a sorceress mastering in fire that uses orb, but can't even cast frostbolt. Just doesn't make any sense as far as character progression goes.
I don't think they need to necessarily cripple the player with extremely demanding requirements, but i think this much freedom is not necessarily a good thing.
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