Forewarning, I'm not reading anyone's post because... I don't really care what you say. I'm just replying to the original one.
I have a feeling D3 is being developed to kind of make paths for specialized builds. So like instead of picking shout and iron skin and using concentration and a shield to make an iron barb, or... people whatever weird stuff you do to make a melee sorc, like in D2, they're saying "Here, these skills are for you guys. I'm giving you these tools so you can take this path if you want."
In most cases, no, I don't think anyone's going to want all the passives, they'll just take the ones they want. But if you want to go for pure damage or speed or pure defense, you have your stuff.
In a way, I think this does kind of promote variety but it does kind of suck that it's all right there. Also it seems like there's a shift from being item based to skill based. It may be for the better but I kind of liked barbs being item based. Even though it did suck getting yourself up to a workable level.|||Knight wolf, i am with the program. I understand the passive system and i think it is LOADS better than previous system. What i am thinking is that Beserker skills should have stats that benefit beserker skills etc.
Lets hypothetically say that the beserker passives boost fury generation and move speed, juggernut passives boost damage, and battlemaster passives boost defense. I know i know... its not actually like this. The point is each tree is sort of themed, so they should be similar and compliment each other.
Battlemaster passives should go well with other battlemaster play style. Sure if you want to go half and half or something like that it should work. But i see no reason for having a large benefit from most skills in one tree, and maybe 5 or so in 2 others.
Maybe im just being picky, but it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see why a full juggernaut barb should be able to use a move called "wrath of the berserker" unless he has enough points invested in the berserker tree.|||Hi!
Here are tier VI skills for barb:
Berserk:
* Wrath of the Berserker
o Active skill that increases numerous Barbarian combat stats.
* Onslaught (requires Berserker State)
o Active skill that increases crit and dodge chance.
Battlemaster:
* Cripple
o Passive skill that slows enemy movement and attack rate.
Juggernaut:
* Earthquake
o Active skill that creates a huge wave of damage.
* Strong Constitution (requires Bloodthirst)
o Passive skill that automatically regenerates health.
So 2 of the 5 skills have prequisites wich means 3 can be taken by anyone who wants to have them after they have reached certain level and have put 25 points in skills. In addition to this i'd go out and say if bloodthirst stay as it is, it sounds like it's REALLY good for any build that wants to keep the pace fast as you can get nice healing from doing damage.
2 of tier VI skills are pure passives. Strong constitution and Cripple, wich both are defensive skills. So these ones will most likely be good that wants a bit extra defence for themselves. Tho i think Cripple will be better for tanking few monsters as you most likely can't hit the debuff with aoe skills and Strong Constitution keeps giving HP back all the time. I'd say that Strong Constitution won't save you from a boss necessarely but Cripple will help alot as it gives a huge decreace to damageoutput.
3 of the skills are active skills. Atm it's unknow if Earthquake will scale with weapon damage (i think atleast?) but if it will it's most certainly better for 2h barbs than dual weilders. Wrath of Berserker is a real fury dispenser. If this one is taken by a player he will most likely want to focus on passives or anything that doesen't take fury to be used. Wrath doesen't necessarely work better with 1 or 2 weapons but it's really fury consuming so the build needs to take that in to account. Last one is Onslaught. Can't really say who it fits the best but it's offensive and defensive at the same time. If there aren't any x times per minute counters then this one will be better for dualweilders as berserker state requires alot of hits to be on alot.
All in all i think that barbs won't be picking every T VI skills just because they are in the end of the bracket. These skills are quite different and support different playstyles, wich is good. If the one big tree is made correctly it gives freedom of choise. IMHO atleast the ends of the trees are made well to support certain kind of builds and with the current system you can patch up those builds from 3 trees and not be limited by one tree.|||Quote:
That's not redundancy, that's customization options to allow customizing your build to some degree depending on your build preferences (which can be boosted even further by items).
When there are 4 skills that do more or less the same thing, who is not going to pick the best one?
It almost looks like they're using the level 5 skill cap as an excuse to split each offensive or defensive skill four ways with minor variations that add up to the same thing: More Damage 1, More Damage 2, ..., More Defense 1, ...
Quote:
You are assuming too much, for a tanking class like the Barb Defensive skills are a must, variety of skills is also a must to allow each build to have the defensive skills that fit with it.
In which case, as I said, you need exactly as many defensive skills as necessary. This probably means (due to no leech and limited potions) that you need just enough defensive skills to survive from each health orb to the next. As you get stronger, you need fewer defensive skills, so you respec out of them.
Quote:
Actually most of the skills you mention are passives that activate under certain conditions (with only one or two that you need to cast yourself).
That's one or two too many. Skills with a 10% chance to be usable when you take damage, or a buff that can only be cast when another buff is active, are such a hassle that people may not want to use them if not necessary. Warcries only need to be cast during downtime once a minute.
As I've said in the Median forum a few times concerning Black Sleep and other crowd control skills: The problem is, why bother when you can just kill the monsters instead.
Quote:
i don't get it really .. you simply just want to spam spam spam one attack spell and thats it or what ?
No, but active skill variety (huge AoE sweep vs. small AoE main attack vs. single target boss takedown skill) has nothing to do with the topic.
Passives are boring to use, but they contribute to the character development metagame and ideally change the way you use your active skills. So far the only ones we've ever seen are Warmth and Pierce; everything else is just a point sink.
Quote:
Also ... "so clearly the game is still possible without any defensive skills" .. what !!! .. by what merit ..
D2 players have a skewed sense of what is 'possible'. On the Median forum, it seems there is a consensus that some bosses are only 'possible' with certain builds because, uh... they can kill the boss faster. (eg. poison sorc and Lorenado, which some consider the only character that 'can' do Vizjun) It all seems rather black and white.
Of course everything is possible with every build if you take your time, but some builds are easier and faster than others. This being an item hunt game, the fastest builds are considered the most (some may say 'only') viable builds.
So as soon as someone figures out how to survive with no defensive skills and crank all points into more damage and higher speed, this will become the new mainstream build.
Quote:
go check Titan Quest it has many skills like that .. and guess what .. it works just fine.
It probably does, but TQ isn't a strategy game either. All I heard about it is that you just spam the same thing in combat and that playing skill doesn't matter.
Quote:
They aren't minor variations, you just seem to be nitpicking.
HotA - Does critical damage + has considerable recovery period + does extra physical damage
Bash - Knocks back + has no recovery period
They are, because the two skills fulfill the identical same role so you pick the one that is best at it. Come on, name one situation where you want to use one of these but where the other would be useless.
And don't say 'knockback crowd control'... we have AoE stun for that.
Quote:
I don't get your point at all, this isn't making any sense, they offer a large variety of passives to allow for customization options for builds you complain about too many Defense, damage, speed boosters and redundancy there.
Exactly: I want something else besides 20 skills that fulfill the same role in the game. Whether you pick Plus Damage Passive 1 or Plus Damage Passive 2 seems to make little difference.
Idea: how about a passive that causes some sort of minion to pop up when you kill enemies? A few more that build on this and you have a summoner barb.
Idea: how about a passive that causes a long distance knockback to the direct target of your attack - causing damage to enemies in the way?
Idea: how about a passive that simply adds poison damage to your attacks? It is 'just extra damage', but of a variety that requires a specific build and a very different gameplay style. There is a Snake Tribe after all.|||Game is more dangerous now, we need defense and DR in heaps! And good attack speed + high damage to kill faster! Reasons:
(1) No town portals
(2) No spammable potions, health globes drop and you have to actually get to them in the midst of combat heat.
(3) No spammable mana either, in this case fury, and it drains while not in use!!!!
Something related to Fury: Enrage is a very interesting skill, if you are a high life/defense/DR barb, you can take extra damage and generate insane fury amounts. A good tradeoff and a cool 'danger' skill where you can gamble some attributes for others. Creates more of a challenge and invites more strategy. Coupled with Threatening Shout or Ignore Pain, you are essentially balancing out the damage you are taking with Enrage as if you werent using it. Not to mention couple this with Second Wind and speed passives, that tradeoff is really worth taking!
Recap: Enrage + Second WInd + Threatening shout / Ignore Pain + Cripple + Inspiration + Invigorated + Bad Temper --> just an example of the awesome passive effect combos.
You have to really analyse how all these passives interact with each other, IMO the Barb's skill tree is the best designed so far, and I have over analysed the Wizard's and WD's to no end too ....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(4) There is never going to be a system with a set of 30+ skills where they are all useful to you, in ANY Diablo game, IMO. Do you want 2 combat skills and 33 passives, then?
(5) Bash and Hammer are quite different actually. Bash has a really huge damage bonus but also knocks back. It has a delay BEFORE attacking, and is relatively slow. HOTA doesnt knock back, adds a damage modifier %, and extra base damage +X on top, and increases critical chance. Its a huge damage skill, and its a fast attack, but puts you into a slight recovery time AFTERWARDS. However, I would say Hammer is overall faster. They both have their uses.
(6) The passives and %chance to use skills, coupled with runes, are going to be awesome IMO. Frenzy, Double Strike, Slashing Strike, Cripple are all passive which is great, and they give normal melee attacks a much needed boost. I am assuming you cannot use these with Cleave, Bash etc. Would be especially needed in the beginning of combat with low Fury or when you run out of Fury completely. When was the last time you used your normal attack button in D2? HINT: NEVER!
(7) I agree however when it comes to these 2 skills:
Ignore Pain and Threatening Shout. They are essentially the same, both give -50% damage reduction at skill level 1, but Ignore Pain lasts for half the time, has 15 second cooldown, and suspends fury gain!!! Whats the catch, why would I use Ignore Pain over TS? Ignore Pain costs 1 Fury Orb, TS probably the same (not listed)
(8) Why Hammer of the Ancients and not something else? Maul of the Ancients, Wrath of the Ancients, Anger of the Ancients? I dont EVER want to see the word HAMMER in any skill description AGAIN.|||Quote:
And don't say 'knockback crowd control'... we have AoE stun for that.
Exactly: I want something else besides 20 skills that fulfill the same role in the game. Whether you pick Plus Damage Passive 1 or Plus Damage Passive 2 seems to make little difference.
(1) Ground Stomp comes with huge cooldown
(2) There are no 2 passives that have the same role, and straight up % damage passives were all removed. There were at least 5 of them in last years build, not this years.
(3) I wish I could compare to Median and comment, but never bothered to play that mod or ESun, or any mod for that matter. I dont like unofficial stuff and in videos, Median looked like an insane light show, 10 times more colors flying around than the monk gameplay video. Plus didnt they borrow those crappy animated monsters from Baldurs Gate, or was that another mod?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOxz4...om=PL&index=21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=capJ8StBKGo ---> What the heck is that? Those arent even Barbarian melee skills to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alHLZ...eature=related --> Unholy Paladin (!!).
Dont get me wrong, I do not have anything against median per se, but you seem to be quoting it a lot and you cant use it to relate to D3 discussions, IMO. It has too many 'over the top' mostly designed to awe with color and coolness factor, kind of skills from what I see. Cant see most of those skills fitting into a new Diablo game.
Quote:
Idea: how about a passive that causes some sort of minion to pop up when you kill enemies? A few more that build on this and you have a summoner barb.
Idea: how about a passive that causes a long distance knockback to the direct target of your attack - causing damage to enemies in the way?
Idea: how about a passive that simply adds poison damage to your attacks? It is 'just extra damage', but of a variety that requires a specific build and a very different gameplay style. There is a Snake Tribe after all.
(1) A summoner barb seems way too much 'out of the box', and doesnt fit the Barb's design philosophy well. He doesnt need a helping hand, he has 2 pairs of 80 inch biceps hands to dish out the pain himself!!!
(2) Bash has knockback and Furious Charge does something very similar, if not identical
(3) I would leave that to weapon enhancements or maybe it will be present in the skill runes, who knows! If anything, you would have to include a mastery dealing ALL kinds of damage to the main attack so as not to upset any fans (why only poison?), but then again he would be too OP like that! Why focus so much on adding elemental attacks to a Barb? Yes we know immunes are going to be back as stated in a certain skill, but they will have good ways of going around them. At least I hope so, they should have learned the lesson!
(4) Im not sure if you or it was someone else who mentioned we need cooler active skills ... but my response is YOU CANT BE SERIOUS!!!!
Seismic Slam, HOTA, Whirlwind, Furious Charge, Cleave (imagine cleave working with double and slashing strikes + Frenzy!!!!), the all new improved and mighty leap attack, and Earthquake sounds killer too, Im dying to see it.|||Hi!
Quote:
When there are 4 skills that do more or less the same thing, who is not going to pick the best one?
It almost looks like they're using the level 5 skill cap as an excuse to split each offensive or defensive skill four ways with minor variations that add up to the same thing: More Damage 1, More Damage 2, ..., More Defense 1, ...
...
That's one or two too many. Skills with a 10% chance to be usable when you take damage, or a buff that can only be cast when another buff is active, are such a hassle that people may not want to use them if not necessary. Warcries only need to be cast during downtime once a minute.
Meh.
First of all, the level cap for skills is presumably 15 as you have ways to increase it as it has been stated in many threads.
Secondly, it has 10% of proc AT THE FIRST LEVEL. If It increases 5% by skill level like it's put on diablowiki it's alot more usefull. http://diablowiki.net/Revenge
(these are assumed values, not confirmed ones i guess)
Also saying that skills are pretty much same and people will pick the best one is pretty far fetched. Can you link those dozens of skills that are the same? Eaven bash and the HotA are alot different from eachother when you actually take the time to look what the skills do.
Bash:
Tier I
* Bash the enemy for 200% of weapon damage. Causes Knockback.
* Fury Cost: 1 Fury Orb
HotA
Tier III
* A massive attack that deals 175% weapon damage plus an additional 12 physical damage, and has a 25% increased chance to critically hit.
* Fury Cost: 1 Fury Orb
Already the damage stats are different. Other one has knockback and other one has alot higher crit chance. What i think is the most notable difference is that Bash is Tier I. You can pick it from the start and for HotA you have to wait for 10 levels. Also now you must pick skills from lower tiers so if you don't want anything else you can pick the Bash and skip HotA to get a basic special attack or you can fill the tier 3 with HotA. Also if you want to have a knockback and you aren't taking Earthquake, Bash will be a valid choise. In the other hand if you use crit build most likely you want to pick up the HotA as it already has huge passive bonus to crit. Also there is difference in the damage when used with 1 or 2 handed weapons. Bash scales only with wep damage but HotA has passive damage bonus so it can be better with 1h weapons.
Surely there are skills that do pretty much the same thing. In many cases it won't matter if you use bash or HotA but there still are huge differences between the skills. The small things bring flavour to the game. In the end it looks like there is diversity what you can pick and still get the job done.|||Quote:
The barb's skill tree seems to be crammed with:
- Defense, damage, speed boosters. There is an awful amount of redundancy there.
Sure you looking at new skill tree with only 35 skills? Because that is simply not true!
Defense:
Battle Cry, Threatening SHout, Ignore Pain, Second Wind .... dont see anything else.
Damage related passives:
Invigorated, Inspiration, Retaliation.
Speed:
Since when is speed redundant? Yes, the Berserker tree's passives are all about speed and multiple attacks and fast fury generation, but thats what I love about it, Im dying to make a Berserker Barb for one!!! Juggernaut seems to be all about damage and tanking on the other hand, forgoing speed and being able to take some extra damage so less focuse on defense / block / shields. Barbs in D2 wanted both all the time, now you have to choose and implement some strategy to make up for the one sacrificed ... SWEET!
Quote:
- Too many defensive skills. Nobody wants them all. People will just cherrypick the best ones.
There are very little, in fact, like I already said.
Quote:
- Too many time-limited skills you have to activate yourself. I tried that in Median (Rapture, Vanquish) and it didn't work because it meant you had to keep casting stuff instead of having fun attacking, or you just cast it at the start of each fight and it was like a passive except you wasted a second at each fight.
This is not Median, this is D3 from the devs who have way more experience. And I'm sure it will work out much better than the Median skills, even though I dont know the specifics on them.
Too many time limited skills? They are all passives, so you wont have to cast anything. And with enough good points in Berserker skills, your Barb will be very speed oriented, attacking faster and thus procing more and more of those passives over time, meaning they will always be on! Frenzy last for 6 seconds (and thats at skill level 1 and no skill runes in it!!), but within those 6 seconds a super fast barb will stack up multiple frenzies, just like you keep casting CB's or OW's in D2, even tho OW only lasts for 8 seconds, its still always on with your fast attacking smiter, for example.
Dont worry about the percentage chance of some skills either, they will go up fast, do you think Blizzard will let us stick to a 6% chance of Berserker State for the whole game? I doubt it!!!! Lets say it goes up 30% chance, and your Barb does at least 3 attacks per second, you will cast it in 2 seconds for sure, and it last for 4 seconds, to begin with. Its duration will go up. Against huge mobs you will be running about and constantly entering Berserker States like crazY!
Quote:
- Unnecessary defensive skills. Other classes don't have quite that many defensive skills, so clearly the game is still possible without any defensive skills. So why bother getting them? The only reason people picked up IS and NR in D2 was because it was only one point..
Unneccesary please!!!! Come ON! No spammable pots, no town portals, fury which drains while not in use ... this is a more dangerous game, mind you. There is also no more IS and NR now. There are not that many defensive skills, stop saying that. Monk is about extreme speed and crippling enemies, and WD and wizard are never going to be in the middle or forefront of combat, they take a hit and run approach or stand behind my meatshield approach.
Quote:
- Skills that could have been useful if only. The retaliation attack is very interesting, and if it wasn't 10% when struck but 100% it would be great. I have something exactly like that in Median as the paladin's main melee skill, and it is already pretty dangerous even with 100% and built-in knockstun. Leap Attack is still useless because its damage is based on strength instead of weapon damage which increases faster...
You are once again comparing to Median, and you say skills are pretty dangerous there, but Blizzard wants this game not to have so many Uber skills, so to speak. And it seems this is what you are only looking for IMO which is quite sad. I enjoy a good challenge, not mowing down hordes while chewing bubble gum and hardly breaking a sweat.
You are asking too much for a 100% retaliation, that is not practical and takes away its value. You might be able to get 100% critical hit chance and +100% critical damage in the game, so the extra damage from retaliation being ON all the time will be too much / too OP, and I know retaliation has low damage figures, but thats only as a STARTER skill, remember that ...
We dont know how much damage Leap Attack will deal, and cant assume it will be low / useless because it doesnt work with weapon damage. Smite and DTalon dont work with weapon damage either .... Too early to just assume something like that.
Quote:
- A general feeling that while there are cool skills, the tree is so big and full of boring or weak junk that it drowns out the good. Is the barb really meant to be a one build wonder again?
NOOOOO! HARDLY. I see no boring or weak junk. Last year there were 57 skills and most of them were useless / did the same stuff / had too much damage or defense bonuses. But not this year, they have really fixed it well.
And if you are asking for more or think they are weak, I have 2 words for you: SKILL RUNES!|||I would like to see a balance. Maybe they added more Defensive skills for dueling? maybe they were focusing on a tank build? but im agreeing with 1 dominate build being a problem in Diablo 2|||No offense Brother Laz but you have to realise that your goal with your mod and Blizzard's goal with Median are very different.
In your mod you couldnt take too many bold moves because if you started doing too many changes that end up going against the "metagame" and line of thinking of the diablo 2 community, noone would want to play your mod because the mod wouldnt be in synch with what the community that you are aiming at wants.
Blizzard doesnt have to worry about that, they can make as many bold changes to the core gameplay (and they already did), things that were never once needed in Diablo or ARPGs in general (potion-spamming has always been a staple for example). They can experiment, change, rework, add and remove concepts far more than you could because their audience and resources are far more powerful.
Its true that noone really bothered with defensive skills in D2 but this is another game, a complete new take on a decade old game, not a mod of said game.
No comments:
Post a Comment